How LineVision made it out of utility 'pilot hell'

The dynamic line rating darling LineVision is one of the utility industry’s most recent startup success stories.

Founded in 2018 by Hudson Gilmer and Jonathan Marmillo, LineVision wanted to revolutionize the DLR offerings on the market — but was finding that utilities were slow to deploy new tech. At the time, the industry standard was well below what Gilmer and Marmillo thought it could be. 

“The concept [of DLR] had been around for maybe 15 years, but no one had really cracked the code of how to make it reliable and easy to implement,” said Gilmer on a recent episode of the With Great Power podcast. 

Utilities tend to be wary of hardware-based grid solutions because of the perception that mishaps could cause outages and if the device broke it would be stuck on the transmission line. And pre-LineVision, Gilmer said the DLR offerings were “either load cells that would measure the tension of a line or clamp-on devices that would actually require an outage and be attached to the wires.” 

“The hardware would be deployed, but then when it failed, the utilities would be stuck with a stranded asset on their lines, and didn't have the budget to go take off that device and replace it,” said Gilmer.

So, after conversations with utilities, LineVision decided to instead take a “non-contact" approach with a hardware-software combination product, where the DLR sensor mounts on the transmission tower instead of the line.

“It doesn't require an outage, it doesn't require anything touching the wires — but also it has much broader visibility,’ said Gilmer. 

But even so, LineVision struggled to sign operational contracts, meaning contracts that involved integrating their product into utility operations. They were stuck in the proverbial utility pilot purgatory, or what Gilmer called “pilot hell.” 

“Utilities are very methodical, and rightly so, about deploying new technology on their grid,” he said. 

But that care means that potentially beneficial technology doesn’t actually have the chance to make an impact. For its first few years, LineVision was stuck doing research and development projects at different utilities. With each project, they made improvements to their sensors and software to “make it utility-grade.” 

This patience — and willingness to commit to working with utilities to identify their needs — has finally paid off for LineVision. In the last few they've caught a few big breaks catapulting the company into the mainstream.

First, in 2022, after years of R&D pilots, National Grid offered the company a follow-on contract to operationalize the technology. And last year, AES announced plans for the largest DLR demonstration deployment in the country with LineVision. 

“No utility really wants to be the first to adopt new technologies,” said Gilmer. “But when they see their peers having success, then it really de-risks that proposition.” 

Gilmer credits the startup’s growing success to their utility customers who are willing to share the results of their deployments: “I do think that the biggest factor driving [more adoption] is that we've got great customers who are not shy about sharing their success in deploying this technology with their peers,” he said. 

While he sees the technology as still in the pilot phase — or what he calls the “band-aid phase,” where DLR is only deployed on “problem lines" — that is beginning to change. He thinks within the next ten years DLR-by-sensor will be pervasive throughout the power grid as the industry standard.

“I firmly believe that's where we're going as an industry,” he said. “The only question is how quickly we'll get there.”

For the full conversation with Hudson Gilmer on dynamic line ratings, listen to his interview on season 3 of With Great Power.

With Great Power is a show about the people building the future grid, today. It's a co-production of GridX and Latitude Studios. Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your shows.

Transcript 

Brad Langley: Six years ago, Hudson Gilmer was in utility purgatory. His new startup, LineVision, was stuck doing the same pilot projects over and over again at different utilities across the United States.

Hudson Gilmer: As you know, utilities are very methodical, and rightly so, about deploying new technology on their grid. And so we went through what we affectionately refer to as pilot hell.

Brad Langley: But Hudson had big plans for the power sector, and he was not about to get derailed. He had left the telecom industry back in 2010, wanting to replicate the transformations happening there in the power grid.

Hudson Gilmer: When I was in the telecom industry, in the beginning of my career, data networks were built using point-to-point circuits to deliver data from A to B. And over the course of my career, IP overtook circuit switching, and it allowed much more of a meshed reliable way of delivering data and also a much more efficient way of delivering data.

Brad Langley: The evolution in data delivery led to various improvements across the entire industry, like new business models and customer services, and Hudson felt it was almost inevitable that the same evolution would happen to the electric utilities.

Hudson Gilmer: There's so many parallels between telecom and energy, and particularly the electric grid. These are both network industries. They're both heavily regulated industries. And so, I almost felt like I had a window into the future of what would happen in the electric grid space by having spent so much time in the telecom industry.

Brad Langley: So in 2018, Hudson along with his co-founder, Jonathan Marmillo, launched LineVision, a dynamic line rating company that builds sensors that measure the capacity of a transmission line in real time.

Hudson Gilmer: You can almost think of it as essentially a fitness band for the grid. We're adding monitoring to the lines that form the backbone of the grid. And by doing that, we make the grid more efficient, but we also make it safer and more reliable.

Brad Langley: But over the next four years, LineVision struggled to scale their pilot projects.

Hudson Gilmer: The first few years was really all about small-scale, R&D-funded pilot projects, and taking feedback from those early utility customers, incorporating them to improve and really harden our system, make it utility-grade.

Brad Langley: That cycle of pilots and product iterations finally broke in 2022 when National Grid offered LineVision a new contract to integrate their product into the utility's operations.

Hudson Gilmer: A number of utilities who were with us from the very early days then awarded us follow-on contracts that are what we call operational, where the LineVision data is coming into the EMS of the utility and being used in daily operations.

Brad Langley: Today, LineVision has projects with some of the largest utilities in the country and its rise is coming at the exact moment when the electric grid needs it the most.

This is With Great Power, a show about the people building the future grid today. I'm Brad Langley.

Some people say utilities are slow to change, and they don't innovate fast enough, and while it might not always seem like the most cutting-edge industry, there are lots of really smart people working really hard to make the grid cleaner, more reliable and customer-centric. This week I'm talking with Hudson Gilmer, the CEO and Co-founder of LineVision. The company is on a mission to enable electrification and decarbonization by developing sensors that make the grid more intelligent.

LineVision is a dynamic line rating provider. Their sensors tell utilities and grid operators exactly how much capacity is available on the power line, which is traditionally done through estimations. And although DLR has been around for a while, it's more recently been gaining momentum.

Hudson Gilmer: I think the tipping point has been partly that no utility really wants to be the first to adopt new technologies, but when they see their peers having success, then it really de-risks that proposition. But I think the other factor is load growth.

Brad Langley: Because for the first time in decades, load growth is on the rise, and that's bringing a lot more attention to grid-enhancing technologies that can help expand grid capacity. Dynamic line rating is still in the early stages of adoption, but Hudson believes in time it will be industry standard.

Hudson Gilmer: I talked about the pilot phase. That's really where we've come from. The operational phase is where we are right now, where you can almost think of it as kind of a band-aid phase where utilities are identifying maybe three or four highly congested lines, which may be candidates for DLR. But ultimately, where I see this going is system-wide deployment.

Brad Langley: I talk with Hudson about two of LineVision's biggest projects with AES and National Grid. But we began the conversation with Hudson's pivot into the power sector, which started with his decision to leave telecom and go to grad school at MIT. After school, he got a job as the marketing director for a company called EnerNOC.

Hudson Gilmer: EnerNOC was really an industry leader in demand response. I joined EnerNOC straight out of business school at a period before they went public when I actually likened what EnerNOC was doing to what LineVision is doing in terms of being a new model for grid capacity. But I was brought on to be their head of marketing, and just learned a tremendous amount. I was actually just last week with one of the co-founders of EnerNOC who remains a mentor and a great friend.

One of the things that inspires me most when I look at what Tim and David, the two co-founders, built at EnerNOC is not so much the impact on the industry, although that was tremendous, but the people who went through that organization and became leaders. Tim was sharing with me that over 40 EnerNOCers are now leading or founders of companies in the climate tech space. So he's the father of so many people who have gone on to do great things in this industry.

Brad Langley: So then you spent some time in a company called Enova Power, and you did nearly a decade at Genscape, which is a research and consulting agency now owned by Wood MacKenzie. How was the industry changing during that time? Maybe talk through some of the major trends you remember happening during that time.

Hudson Gilmer: The industry is always changing. I think what happened during the time... When I joined Enova Power, we were the first to really build out modeling and predictive analytics that were used by market participants trading in these wholesale markets, and the industry was going through this change from centralized dispatchable generation, so coal and gas and nuclear generation to renewables, and that had huge market implications. It was causing much more swings in power prices as the wind blows, as the sun shines, and required people who were buying and selling in these markets to really understand those fundamentals, and fortunately, we were at a place where we could provide insights.

This is a fascinating industry. I think we're now seeing this fortunate situation where the future is electric, and that's both exciting and daunting at the same time. It's going to require a complete rethink of how grids are built and operated. We can't double or triple grid capacity using the same tools that we used to build the grid that we have today.

Brad Langley: And then, after Genscape, is when you launched LineVision, which was in 2018. What was the DLR market like at that time?

Hudson Gilmer: In 2018, DLR was not a new technology. The concept had been around for maybe 15 years, but no one had really cracked the code of how to make it reliable and easy to implement. The DLR providers at the time were using more hardware-intensive solutions. So, either load cells that would measure the tension of a line or clamp-on devices that would actually require an outage and be attached to the wires.

When we started LineVision, we really took a hard look and talked to a lot of customers or utility executives about why they hadn't deployed DLR to date. And what they told us is, "We want a solution that doesn't come anywhere close to our energized lines, that is reliable." Because often with the earlier incarnations of DLR, the hardware would be deployed, but then when it failed, the utilities would be stuck with a stranded asset on their lines, and didn't have the budget to go take off that device and replace it.

So, based on all that feedback, we developed a different approach, a non-contact approach, which mounts on the tower and has a few advantages. It doesn't require an outage, it doesn't require anything touching the wires, but also it has much broader visibility. We're able to see all of the conductors that make up a line, even if it's a dual-circuit line, and just get much richer data on the lines and the inputs that go into calculating an accurate line rating.

Brad Langley: I want to transition to talking about some of your current projects, but before that, let's go through some of the acronyms we've been throwing out there. We have DLR and GETs, or GETs, which stands for grid-enhancing technologies. Can you explain the two of them and their connection?

Hudson Gilmer: There's way too many acronyms in this industry. GETs stands for grid-enhancing technologies. Broadly, these are technologies that can unlock additional capacity on the existing grid. DLR is one of those grid-enhancing technologies. DLR stands for dynamic line ratings.

I think the best way to understand it is a traffic analogy.

Grid-enhancing technologies include DLR, which is analogous to opening up a new lane, an additional lane on a highway to allow more traffic to flow.

Power flow control is another one of the grid-enhancing technologies, and that is analogous to a smart traffic light, which can dynamically balance loads across different roadways, and again, increase capacity.

And then the third grid-enhancing technology is topology control. This can be compared to Google Maps or waves for the grid. When there is an outage on the system, this allows the grid to dynamically route electrons, route power around those bottlenecks and decrease the impact, decrease the congestion on the grid.

Brad Langley: DLR projects are often covered by the amount of sensors deployed as part of that project. Is that a good way to talk about the size of these projects? How do you like to describe them?

Hudson Gilmer: Probably not. I think the number of sensors only means something to the vendors who are selling those sensors, but the reality is that what matters is the problem that the utility is trying to solve.

We have projects where we've been brought in to help reduce congestion related to offshore wind. We've had projects where customers have said, "I want to integrate more renewables on the grid." We have projects where customers have said, "I need to connect more load." Or, "I have a critical industrial manufacturing facility where I need more grid capacity," or, "more data center load growth that I need to support."

And really the more relevant unit of measure is lines. A line is connecting one substation to another. It may be 20 miles. It may be 30 miles long. And we will generally, as a rule of thumb, deploy a sensor every three or four miles on that line to make sure that we have really accurate local understanding of the factors that determine how much power you could safely flow through that line.

Brad Langley: I know you touched on throughout the conversation, Hudson, why DLR is important for utilities, but when you're talking to them, give me the elevator pitch for why DLR and why it's so imperative for utilities to adopt today.

Hudson Gilmer: When I put myself in the shoes of a utility executive, it's a really hard job. As a consumer, when you plug a light into an outlet, you just take for granted that you're going to get power and the light will turn on. But behind the scenes, it's an immense challenge to deliver that reliable, affordable power in the face of aging infrastructure, in the face of more and more severe weather, and the constant regulatory pressure and investor pressure. And as I said earlier, now we have load growth that's just making life even more difficult for utilities because they now have to expand their grid even faster.

So what DLR does is it can help utilities quickly solve a lot of those challenges by just getting more headroom on the existing wires. So whether it's connecting new loads, whether it's increasing reliability, just by having that greater capacity, or affordability, whether it's just keeping rates from going up year over year, DLR I think has a really important role to play.

Brad Langley: Let's dig into more some of the projects you're working on, some specifics around those. One of your major projects with National Grid UK, where LineVision is helping integrate more offshore wind onto the grid, what is your role in that project and maybe explain a little bit about how your technology is enabling more offshore wind capacity.

Hudson Gilmer: National Grid in the UK is in a unique situation, given that they're blessed with tremendous offshore wind resources. They will integrate 50 gigawatts of offshore wind onto their system in the next five years, but the onshore grid hasn't kept pace, and that has resulted in about 2 billion pounds per year of congestion, and these are costs that are borne by their consumers. So LineVision was brought in to help address some of that offshore wind-driven congestion. We've been deployed on three lines so far and are discussing a pretty major expansion of that, and we've seen tremendous results on those projects.

On one line alone, we saw more than 20% average increased capacity. According to National Grid, they were able to reduce congestion costs by 14 million pounds per year and increase grid capacity by 600 megawatts, so increase the amount of offshore wind that they could bring onto the system by 600 megawatts. And that also has huge CO2 reduction impacts. They estimate about 700,000 tons of CO2 reduction, because when offshore wind gets curtailed because of grid constraints, that means they've got a dispatch, they've got to run their fossil fuels, like gas generation, more intensively.

Brad Langley: You also have a project here in the states with AES. That's a pretty large project that focuses on grid capacity and reliability. Tell us a bit more about that project, the need you're helping them solve for and how you guys are going about doing it.

Hudson Gilmer: The project with AES was the largest DLR deployment in the country that was on five lines. So a diverse set of lines across both Indiana and Ohio, a total of 42 sensors, although as we discussed, that probably doesn't mean anything to anyone else. They've been just a great partner to work with. They selected those lines really on the basis of customer impact. They were looking for where can we deploy DLR to reduce cost to our customers, to improve reliability, to connect critical loads onto our system?

They've learned a lot, and we've learned a lot from them in that experience. They were able to see on the higher voltage lines where they deployed really compelling increases in capacity. And on some of their lower voltage lines, a lot of these are wooden structures and maybe 50 or more years old, they were able to see some areas where they needed to harden their system to upgrade the lines, or even to increase vegetation management to allow more cooling effect of wind or to re-conduct those lines. So it's really given their asset management team much richer data to optimize their system.

Brad Langley: So, Hudson, we spent a fair amount of time talking about the DLR market and LineVision's role in it, but maybe take us a step back for those that may not be as familiar with DLR. Can you give us kind of a high-level overview of the market?

Hudson Gilmer: Absolutely. Really, what we're talking about here is line ratings. A line rating is effectively, to go back to the traffic analogy, the speed limit of how much power can safely be put through a line.

The traditional method that utilities use for rating a line is a static or seasonal limit. It's a very conservative assumption about how much power can go through the line based on assuming little to no wind cooling the line, assuming relatively high ambient temperatures, because what these ratings are designed to do is make sure that the line is not overheated, that so much power is put through a line that it doesn't damage the conductor itself.

Ambient-adjusted ratings are one step towards more accurate line ratings, and they move from static line ratings to factoring in ambient temperature and saying, if the weather outside, if it's relatively cool, we can safely put more power through it.

The next step is DLR or dynamic line ratings. These factor in not only temperature, but also the much more powerful cooling effect of wind. Those really require sensors to be deployed locally because wind is locally variable and hard to forecast at a granular level.

LineVision is one of several DLR providers. We are unique in having a non-contact approach to monitoring the conductors. There are others who use clamp-on devices that measure flow on power lines, and some who use no sensor at all, but are really just looking at weather data.

Brad Langley: Throughout the conversation you've been talking about how DLR provides a lot of value, aside from more insights into aligned capacity. Curious, how do you see the DLR and broader GET market evolving over the next few years?

Hudson Gilmer: As I said earlier, I think there's three phases that we are going through in DLR adoption. The first was the pilot phase, and thankfully that's largely behind us. We're now in what I sometimes call the band-aid phase. This is looking at DLR as a tool in the toolbox for problem lines, for highly congested lines, but still it's a relatively small percentage of the overhaul system.

But really where I believe we're going is that this becomes system-wide. And we're already in conversations with some utilities about system-wide deployment. Part of it is that as the operators of the grid start to see this data on some of their lines, they want to see it on all of their lines, and it just helps them do their jobs better in terms of operating a reliable, flexible, efficient grid.

The economics are really compelling for a fraction of the cost of building a single new line. Utilities can deploy DLR system-wide and just get that transformational increase in situational awareness, and flexibility and capacity.

I firmly believe that's where we're going as an industry, and the only question is how quickly we'll get there.

Brad Langley: So, how quickly do you think we'll get there, if you're breaking out the crystal ball?

Hudson Gilmer: I'm going to say five to 10 years. I'm an optimist, so I'm going to lean towards the earlier side of that. I do think that the biggest factor driving that is that we've got great customers who are not shy about sharing their success in deploying this technology with their peers.

I was on a panel just a few weeks ago at the EI Conference with AES talking about their experience. National Grid has done press releases and video testimonials about their experience, and you'll see more news coming soon about other customers deploying this at scale. So I think there's a real momentum that comes where this becomes essentially the best practice of how to deploy.

I think that, especially in this new era of load growth, grid capacity is the new gold. The utilities who can operate, who can invest in technology to create the most efficient, flexible, dynamic, reliable grids will be the ones that attract data center load growth, that attract manufacturing projects, that bring jobs, that bring economic development, that bring load to their regions. And so, even though utilities are monopolies at some level, they're also competing with each other and are very quick to adopt proven technologies.

Brad Langley: We call this show With Great Power, which is a nod to the energy industry. It's also a famous Spider-Man quote, "With great power comes great responsibility." So what superpower do you bring to the energy transition?

Hudson Gilmer: I think my superpower is optimism. You and I know that selling technology to utilities is not for the faint-hearted, and bringing a company from startup to scale is also full of challenges. But through it all, we have a tremendous team. And I think we have a confident optimism that the platform that we have built is the best way to build an efficient, flexible, reliable, and safe grid, and I'm excited for the future.

Brad Langley: Hudson, thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Hudson Gilmer: Thanks so much, Brad. I really enjoyed it.

Brad Langley: Hudson Gilmer is the CEO and Co-Founder of LineVision.

With Great Power is produced by GridX in partnership with Latitude Studios. Delivering on the clean energy future is complex. GridX exists to simplify the journey. GridX is the enterprise rate platform that modern utilities rely on to usher in our clean energy future. We design and implement emerging rate structures, and we increase consumer investment in clean energy, all while managing the complex billing needs of a distributed grid.

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